By Mary Lackie

Ecumenical dialogue in England remains “a bit artificial,’ said Alan Lawson, instructor at St. Theodore’s Boys’ School, Burneley, Lanchashire.

“The dialogues give the churches a sense of security; an imagined sense of progress being made where progress does not exist,” Lawson said.

In a recent interview in Atlanta, Lawson reviewed a series of articles in the Georgia Bulletin on the Church in England written by Desmond Fisher. “In the main,’ Lawson said, “I would have to agree with him.”

Qualifying a statement by Fisher that “it is a period of strain in England,” Lawson said, “It is a period of change, which is not quite the same thing. Suddenly the ecumenical movement seems to have brought the most disturbance.”

The North of England, with a Catholic population of one-half million is “traditional in its thinking—more conservative and much loyal,” Lawson said.

In this region, Bishop Holland of Salford is carrying out liturgical reforms very quietly, Lawson said, “But the bishop is dynamic, and very well liked. He tries to see every Catholic in the archdiocese—and visited our house—in his attempt to explain personally the reforms since Vatican II.”

Resistance to reform comes with few exceptions, from the priests, Lawson said. “They have tried to be as conservative as they can be. In some parishes, the Mass might as well be in Latin—the priest mumble away as usual.”

But, Lawson noted, “where reforms in the liturgy are practiced in the north, there has been an increase in communions and a revived interest in the faith.”

“However,” he said, “we don’t seem to have gone as far in the Church renewal as I observed at Mass at the Cathedral of Christ the King. I was much impressed by the marvelous sense of participation there in liturgical worship,” Lawson said.

“We like to be neighborly in the north,’ said Lawson, ‘and do participate in dialogues with Protestant churches.” The students at St. Theodore’s school attend “joint Christian conferences dealing with social and economic problems,” Lawson said.

“I think this common interest is bringing the younger generation together, but for many of the older ones, this is not true,” he added. One reason for this is that “North England Catholics are drawn mainly from the working classes, and are more reluctant to meet with people of other faiths,” Lawson said.

“Suddenly, since Vatican II,” he said, “you find yourself with a new area of freedom. This involves for most people, making decisions on their own bent, their own initiative,” Lawson said.

In contrast to the Catholic attitude of the North are the undoubtedly more sophisticated Catholics in London and the south,” Lawson said. “There are so many bright young men from the universities there.”

What was their purpose in starting the magazine Slant? Lawson was asked. “It seems to me,” he answered, “that they were catering to themselves more than to the needs of the people. They are very radical in their views—they went as far out as they could and still remain Roman Catholic.”

Some of the views of Slant, which Lawson calls “avant garde thinking” include: legalization of birth control, marriage for priests, and the reinstatement of agape—the love feast—a handling of bread and wine by the congregation.”

“The members of Slant and the Christian Marxists are not limiting reforms to their own community,” Lawson said. “I think they are not so interested in reforming the Church as they are in abolishing the present liturgy and introducing a completely new one—a fundamental change that would affect the whole Church,” Lawson said.

“Naturally,” Lawson said, “since Slant is most active in London, Cardinal Heenan got the brunt of the whole thing.” Lawson believes that most English Catholics agree with Heenan.

“He is considered the spokesman for the Church in England by the large majority of people,” Lawson said. “Of course, there is more impatience among the young.”

Archbishop Murphy, like Cardinal Heenan “is about the same in his moderate approach,” Lawson said, “but not as academic; much more forthright and this appeals to people.”

Lawson said Archbishop Murphy’s conservative approach appeals to many people, because he believes “you have to stand firm against the pulling down of all the barriers and because he is a good speaker and writer, he serves as a rallying point—one of the most conservatives of the English hierarchy.”

What has become of Father Herbert McCabe, P.P.? “McCabe backed up Charles Davis’ criticism of the Church, saying “it was plainly corrupt,” Lawson said, “but the magazine was not widely read until the Davis incident.”

“When the article appeared, everyone ran out to get the magazine. If you read the whole article,” Lawson said, ‘it isn’t quite as dramatic. The statement, that ‘the Church is quite plainly corrupt’ was taken out of context.”

The Charles Davis affair has “died down”, Lawson commented. “Among Catholics as a whole, it is gone and forgotten. Many people who were sympathetic to his cause in the first place became disgusted with him when he married.”

Lawson disagrees with Fisher that there is a “decline in religious practice in England”. He said, “At least this is not true in the North.”

He agrees with Fisher’s statistics that indicate “The Church in England seems irrelevant to most of the people. The main cause for this development is the rising material standard in the country.”

“The Church in England is more social than it is in this country,” said Lawson. “It is also divided by class. One of the big reasons that people went to church was because they could have a good time there—and many of the people were humanitarians rather than Christians,’ Lawson said.

The British Humanist Association is growing and attracting some Catholics, said Lawson. “They do not have religious meetings as such, but meet to discuss morals and ethics without religious emphasis.”

What is the hope for ecumenical understanding in England? Lawson said, “I think there is a genuine interest to be closer together, but at present, it is a superficial desire.’

“I think it is important to remember,” Lawson said “that for 300 years the Roman Catholics in England have been a persecuted minority. So the division lies not only on religious grounds and doctrines, but on the social and historical divisions. “These divisions,” Lawson stressed, “are now forgotten, but the cleavage is still there.”

“Although there is a spirit of friendliness between the Churches—the Anglican, the ‘Free Churches’ (Methodist, Baptist, etc.), and the Roman Catholic, there is no fundamental unity.”

This month the Churches in England will hold an ecumenical dialogue for the first time. “No doubt the Church of England, which started out as a ‘comprehensive church’ believes it will be comprehensive enough to include our Church as well,” Lawson said.

He based this personal opinion on the fact that, “a variety of articles have been written by leading Anglican churchmen stressing the Catholic, but reformed.”

Lawson said, “Authority has come into question.” He referred to the hippies; “the mass of people who were largely content with things as they are have come to realize that there is more to life than the latest car—I think this explains the hippies. It is a part of divine unrest that drives the hippies—they are inspired by the Holy Ghost, but the response has no direction.”

And hippies are not to be compared to the ‘mod” crowd on Carnaby Street who are interested in setting fashions—the “mod’ group panders to the society in which they live.”

Lawson is touring the country with eight students; one of two groups traveling under scholarships from the Thawaites Brewery. In this country, they are sponsored by the Experiment in International Living and stay at home of members of the Atlanta Committee of International Visitors. Lawson is the guest of Mr. and Mrs. John Templeton, members of St. Bartholomew’s Episcopal Church.