The following is a conversation between Archbishop Paul J. Hallinan and bishop-elect Harold R. Perry, newly appointed auxiliary bishop of New Orleans. It took place in Rome at the Vatican Council.

The latest American bishop, Harold R. Perry has, at the age of 48, an impressive background of administrative and educational experience, but he likes to think that his “best work” of the past has been “the preaching of missions and retreats in parishes.”

I have been speaking to him of his excellent preparation for the post of an American bishop today, -- liturgical, ecumenical, racial and social. He admitted freely that his years as seminary rector in Bay St. Louis, Miss., and as southern provincial of the Divine Word order had enkindled a deep interest in these fields, but one could easily see that his parish work in Arkansas, Mississippi and Louisiana was closet to his heart.

For several years I have known our first Negro bishop and now, as a neighboring archbishop, I would agree with the new head of the Church in New Orleans, Archbishop Philip Hannan: “Bishop Perry is singularly qualified by his learning, diverse pastoral experience and solid piety.” The people of New Orleans, both Catholics and those not of our faith, are receiving two men highly gifted to lead the great See by the Gulf of Mexico to new spiritual heights.

I told Bishop Perry what I had said to our people when I ordained two young priests at our Cathedral of Christ the King, in Atlanta, in May of 1963: “I am ordaining today not a white priest and a Negro priest. I am ordaining two Catholic priests.” The new bishop agreed that this statement expressed well his own aspirations as he prepared for his Episcopal consecration. “I hope to be received by all Catholics of our archdiocese,” he said, “and I pledge myself to serve and to dedicate myself wholeheartedly to all the people, white and colored alike.” He made it clear that he will be working, not as a Negro bishop, but as a Catholic bishop for all Catholics.

The Significance

“Yet you are, of course, our first Negro bishop,” I said, “unless we count Bishop James A. Healy of Portland, Maine, who was part-Negro. The event of your appointment and consecration is bound to be significant, as Cardinal Confalnieri indicated last week when he shocked you with the words, ‘You are to be the first Negro bishop in the southern United States.’ How do you, during these exciting days before your consecration, interpret this significance?’”

“Since I am personally involved,” replied Bishop Perry, “I hesitate to estimate this significance. But with God’s grace and the good will of our Catholic people, I want to dedicate myself to my new responsibility. I intend to work as to achieve a more virtuous and spiritual life among people, -- as every bishop must.”

“But I want also to increase the loyal devotion and attachment to the Church on the part of Catholic Negroes, and a greater interest and respect on the part of Negroes of other faiths.”

At this point in our conversation, Lawrence Cardinal Rogumbwa of Africa came by, and practically answered a question for me: What would be the response of Americans and especially American Negroes to the new appointment? “While I was in New York with the Holy Father October 4th,” the tall cardinal from Tanganyika told us, “I was constantly mistaken for you, Bishop Perry. Everywhere I went the Americans, and especially the Negro people, applauded and cheered me as they shouted: ‘Viva the new American bishop! Viva Bishop Perry’.”

Since the African cardinal is well over six feet tall, he is quite a contrast to the stocky Louisianian. Bishop Perry is more in the form of the average American bishop. Negroes who applauded the tall, slim prelate from Tanganyika will have to adjust their sights to get the true measure of the man just named auxiliary bishop of New Orleans.

Attended At Atlanta Meeting

Bishop Perry is not a crusader, but like the great majority of Catholic priests, he sees racial strife in the United States as an affront to human dignity. “When I was in Atlanta in July of this year, I was much impressed by the conference cosponsored by the archdiocese and the National Catholic Council for Interracial Justice. I had helped in the planning of the meeting which discussed, ‘The changing South and the Christian Response,’ and could not help but applaud the enthusiasm, interest and concern of all who took part.” He added, without giving details, that “Several recent events could be traced back to the good influence of the Atlanta Conference.” He is not aware that his own appointment will have its own special significance. In his first statement made here in Rome right after the appointment, he said this:

“I am also aware that this signal appointment will have a meaningful impact and a special significance for many people in various parts of the United States who have awaited this appointment. It is my resolve to lift their hopes for a life of Christian dignity and stimulate their desire for virtuous living here and in eternal life.” A long time friend of the editor of the

Georgia Bulletin, the new bishop was delighted to hear that Gerard Sherry had been selected to receive the James A. Hoey Catholic Interracial Award for 1965. “I am elated at this news. Mr. Sherry’s work for racial justice over many years is well-known throughout the United States.”

Two days before our conversation, a call had been made on the council floor for a more vigorous and detailed treatment of racial discrimination in the schema, the Church in the world of today. The speaker was Bishop Ddungu of Uganda. Cardinal Rogumbwa assured us that this was matter of deep concern to the African Church.

I told the cardinal and Bishop Perry that bishops in many nations (United States, England, South Africa, India and others) were concerned too. I had just submitted an intervention on it, but due to the number of speakers, I had to do it in writing instead of by speaking. Bishop Perry spoke of the hope that the schema would be improved: “It should provide as much material as possible to be a basis for sociological studies for many years to come. It will be a present, authentic source to be quoted and applied wherever injustice of race exists.” Choosing A Motto

Bishop Perry bears himself with a quiet dignity and humility. He is extremely pleasant and congenial. The days before one’s Episcopal consecration are not easy for any bishop-elect. When one knows that he is, in addition, a major sign of the Church’s pastoral intent, it must be more difficult. I asked about the motto he will choose for his bishop’s insignia, if he had thought about it.

“I am anxious,” he replied, “that my work be characterized as a warm charity. I am contemplating, therefore, one of the beautiful texts on this virtue, for example, ‘Charity is the bond of perfection’ (from St. Paul’s epistle). For me, this would mean that charity is the binding force needed to bring all men to spiritual perfection.”

(I thought his idea was excellent. Maybe it was because my own Episcopal motto since 1958 has been: ‘That you may love one another.’)

The U.S. hierarchy receives as its newest brother an experienced and mature priest of God. The people of the Church in America, and particularly in New Orleans, are given by Pope Paul, a dedicated bishop, spiritual and pastoral. We all cause to rejoice.

Paul J. Hallinan

Archbishop Of Atlanta